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PB: Do you see a way to remedy the situation in Europe?
TD: It will be very difficult. It would help if the government would get out of the way. It is necessary to reduce the welfare state. I think it is also necessary to halt the so-called “European project,” which in my view is a vast pension-fund for
politicians who are thrown out of power in their own country. The European Union is fundamentally undemocratic, but it is worse because EU policies are actually obstructive of productive work. Underlying it all, however, we need to persuade people intellectually. If we do not persuade people that there is something valuable in our culture and our tradition – artistic, scientific, philosophical – then I do not see how we can preserve ourselves.
PB: And is there a role to be played by religion, for instance?
TD: I find this a difficult question because I am not myself religious. However, I am not anti-religious. I am pro-religion provided that it is not theocratic, so long as there is still a division between church and state. In Britain it has de facto been like this for a long time. Officially Britain is a Christian country with a state church but de facto it has been a secular society.
PB: You would not see secularization as cause of the problem?
TD: I think it is part of the cause of the problem, because if people cease to believe in a transcendental purpose in life then they seek it elsewhere. If, however, at the same time you have destroyed all other possible sources of transcendental meaning to life, then the destruction of religion is a problem. I personally do not have much of a problem with not being religious, because I have a belief in trying to contribute to the culture of my country. But if I did not have anything like that, or if I were not a doctor who felt that by research I could contribute something, or if I had no cultural interests, then what would be the purpose of my life other than the flux of day to day existence?
PB: Many young immigrants are looking to Islam in order to find a sense of purpose. This might be good as long as it is not theocratic?
TD: In prison I saw black people converting to islam. These were not immigrants of course, but native British-born people. Conversion to religion can lead to an improvement in day to day behaviour, if people do not become extremists, because religion can give a transcendent purpose. The question, however, is whether Islam is inherently unstable and will always tend to extremism. That is the question that has to be answered.
PB: What is your view? Is Islam inherently unstable?
TD: I personally think it probably is, because it does not have anybody to define the doctrine. There is no hierarchy in Islam.
PB: There is no Pope?
TD: There is no Pope, there is nothing to be laid down. A moderate person can always be outflanked by someone who claims to be more Islamic than he is. That is a very serious problem. Of course if you have a pope who himself is a theocrat, then that is a problem, too. But there are two things about Christianity which mark it out. The first thing is that it actually started out, and for quite a long time was, in opposition to a state and not itself a state. The second thing is that there has always been a theoretical divide between the Christian church and the state: the “render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s.” It has of course not always been in existence, but it has always been there in the doctrine as a potential space
between church and state. And that does not exist in Islam.
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